Sunday, December 7, 2008

Packer v. Texans: Open Thread

It's cold outside, it's cold inside, and it's really cols at Lambeau. So I hear.

I'm not sure if the cold helps the Pack or hurts the Pack, but typically teams from warm climates or domes play poorly in cold weather, so it will probably, at the very least, slow down the Texans a bit.

Minnesota plays Detroit, and if the Packers fall today all hope will basically be gone.

Go Pack!

36 comments:

PaulNoonan said...

OK, bad start.

PaulNoonan said...

I have no idea why Houston keeps passing. Every time Steve Slaton touched the thing he picks up like 10 yards.

PaulNoonan said...

An 18 yard run by the punter? This game is awful.

PaulNoonan said...

Aaaaand it's good again.
Since I'm the only one here, I think I'll just call it a day and watch.

eric said...

two minute warning. My son wants them to go for it. Defense has been pretty good these last two plays so i'm not sure it's a good idea. But i'm not sure a 50+ field goal attempt is wise either. Guess i'd go for it.

eric said...

Nice punt but i think i would've gone for it.

Eric said...

yikes. Texans have a field goal coming up.

PaulNoonan said...

When does baseball season start?

E.S.K. said...

Fire Mike McCarthy

Eric said...

thatsucks

Chris said...

The Defense needs an overhaul and unfortunately the O-line needs help

Might need that draft choice from the NY Bretts more than I thought we would.

Shame how many times have they taken the lead late in the last 5 weeks only to see the Defense let the other team drive the field for the winning score.

Eric said...

The defense had four turnovers.

This one is on Offense because they couldn't convert on third down.

Chris said...

Which of course is Aaron Rogers fault right Eric.

Hey how did the NYBretts do today by the way?

E.S.K. said...

549 yards allowed and it's the offenses fault for not converting on 3rd down.

Any future opinions you may have are heretofore invalidated by this comment, Eric.

Anytime you ever have a disagreement with any individual about any topic, they can settle it simply by saying "549," thus rendering any further potentially intelligent debate you may be planning utterly impotent.

Of course, this means you could probably start a lucrative career as an ESPN analyst.

549 yards, and it's the offenses fault. Good God.

Horace said...

I realize I treading out on some thin ice here, but I'm actually going to come to Eric's defense, sort of. The defense was horrible, no doubt. Had they managed to hold them to even 400 yards, with the Packers holding a +3 turnover margin, they probably win. But you have to at least acknowledge, that after moving into FG range inside 4 minutes to play, the complete collapse of the offense which led to them having to punt instead of getting points on the board, contributed to the loss yesterday. And I say that knowing that the phantom holding call on Moll was probably more responsible for that occurring than anything else ... still they had 3 downs after that call to at least get back to the 25 and instead went backwards. Its not the offense's fault completely ... but you can't completely let them off the hook either.

E.S.K. said...

Oh, there were many reasons the Packers could have won yesterday. The fact that they were still in the game at the end if downright astounding. However, you don't win football games giving up 549 yards. You just don't.

Horace said...

Also ... at what point does it become legitimate to question Aaron Rogers inability to make plays when the game is on the line? I keep hearing that 'he is a first year starter' as an excuse for him failing to deliver a win on his own yet ... yeah ... he is a first year starter ... with nearly a season under his belt, and he's a 3 year NFL veteran to boot. The Packers are 0-5 in games decided by 4 or less. In all of them, the Packers had chances with the ball late to tie or take the lead, and Rogers has failed to get the big score they need to do it. In fact I'm still waiting for the wailing and knashing of teeth to begin over his horrible pick late against Carolina, and the awful picks he threw in the 2nd half against New Orleans or Tampa Bay. Funny though ... those that were first to jump down Brett's throat for 'breaking our hearts' with bad picks in must win games, are strangely silent when its Rogers who's doing it instead. Some will argue that will come with experience ... maybe it will. But I tend to think its an intangible quality that you either have or you don't. Brett did it the first time he played in something other than mop up duty his first regular season game as a Packer ... depsite having largely sucked all day. That had nothing to do with experience. He just seemed to have a knack for it. I'm not sure Rogers does.

Horace said...

'The fact that they were still in the game at the end if downright astounding.'

I could say the same thing about Houston, after turning the ball over 4 times and being -3 in turnvoer margin. Point is, it wasn't really all that astounding given how careless Houston was with the ball. Both team's most glaring weaknesses were on full display yesterday, and they basically cancelled each other out. So what was the difference maker in the end. If the Packers score a TD on their final drive instead of having to punt, do they win?

E.S.K. said...

Do they win? Well I guess that depends on whether or not the Packers win the coin toss in OT because the Texans probably would have been able to drive the ball the 65 yards (assuming they return the kickoff to the 35, which is probably generous to the Packers kick coverage) or so to tie the game.

PaulNoonan said...

Horace, you make a ton of good points, but re: Rodgers, he actually has rallied them to last second victories/ties this year, only to see the defense/special teams fart it away in the waning seconds.

E.S.K. said...

I'm not saying Horace's points are invalid, just that it's like complaining about burnt toast when your house is on fire.

PaulNoonan said...

I didn't mean to denigrate you E, I just wanted to stay concise as this is being typed on a mobile device, which is irritating.

Btw, I've heard rumblings that AJ Hawk is playing through a significant injury, but that may just be cover for all I know.

Horace said...

I'm going to go through my list ... you tell me where I'm wrong, going backward from yesterday:

Houston (week 14) - Tied 21 - 21, after moving the ball to a 1st and ten on the Houston 25. Series ends at Houston 38 with a Punt and included a backbreaking 10 yard sack that took them out of FG range. Never got the ball back.

Carolina (week 13) - Down by 4 after failing to get a TD following a 16 play drive that stalled at the 1 and subsequent Panther TD, Packers start at own 17 with 1:24 to go, and ends with Rogers Interception.

New Orleans (week 12) - (Admittedly not a final quarter or final drive kind of thing, but speaks to play of Rogers when game was on his shoulders) - Trailing 31-21 with 8:27 to go in 3rd Quarter Packers have 3 drives in 3 minutes with a total of 7 plays run. 2 of them end in interceptions, the other a 3 and out. 2 New Orleans TDs within that span of series and the game is essentially over.

Minnesota (week 10) - Trailing 28-27 with 2:15 left, Rogers takes over at GB41. Drives them just 24 yards and only 1 first down, settling for a 52 yard FG attempt to win ... kick is missed.

Tennessee (Week 9) - Tied at 16 with 4:24 to play, Packers take over at own 18. Rogers completes just 3-6 while drive stalls at Tennessee 43 yard line (after a 3rd and 10 completion for 2 yards) with 1:49 left. Packers never touch ball again on offense.

Atlanta (Week 5) - Trailing 20-17 with 7:19 to play, Drive starts at Packer 20. With 4:33 left drive ends with Rogers is intercepted and returned to Packer 19. Atlanta scores 3 Players later ... Game is essentially over.

Tampa Bay (Week 4) - Trailing 23-21 with 2:26, Packers take over at thier own 40. 2 Plays later, Rogers is intercepted and returend to Packer 48. Tampa Bay scores in two plays and leads 30-21. Matt Flynn relieves Rogers for final Packer possession.

Since starting the season 2-0, they have gone 3-8. They are 0-5 in games decided by 4 points or less. Some will argue that he got them into position to kick the game winner vs. Vikes, and drove them 79 yard to get the go ahead FG inside 2 minutes to play. I would say that settling for a 52 yard FG attempt after starting at your own 41 yard line is not a sign of being able to move the team in the clutch. As for the Carolina game, everyone watching that game knew the Packers needed a TD, not a FG on thier 2nd to last drive. Plus, he got another chance and threw the game ending INT.

I think the record is clear, a very very good 2nd half rally (That eventually ended on a Rogers INT with 1:24 left) against Carolina not withstanding, Rogers has simply not been effective with the game on the line.

Horace said...

Ok E, I get it, its not all Rogers fault. There are bigger issues with this team than his play over all. But its a little bit more than complaining about burnt toast when your house is on fire. Rogers has had the chance to put win the ball game on at least 6 occasions this year, and failed to close the deal in any of them. Atlanta he throws a game ending interception. Against Tampa Bay, he throws a game ending interception. Tennessee he fails to move them into scoring position and offensive drive ends with a 2 yard pass on 3rd and 10 just out of FG range. At Minnesota, he gets them only a 52 yard FG attempt despite starting at their own 41. In the Carolina game he throws a game ending INT. Against Houston he takes a back breaking sack which takes them out of FG position. Assume he finds a way to make the plays in even 2 of those 6 games and the Packers are 7-6 and in the play off hunt or leading the division if one of them is the Minnesota game. Get 3 and your leading the division outright. Yeah, they are in those situations a lot because the defense, or special teams put them there. And I will also concede that McCarthy has not always put the ball in his hands to actually win it, like when he chose to run 3 times from the 1 against Carolina rather than giving Rogers the ball at least once to try and throw for it. Thing is, every team will have at least a couple of these games a season, if not more. A team needs to have a QB who wins more of these types of games than he loses. Right now Rogers is 0-6. I think its a topic worthy of discussion, and is a valid criteria in evaluating Rogers performance, and how his play has contributed to where the Packer stand today.

PaulNoonan said...

A proper rebuttal will have to wait until I am at a proper computer. In the meantime, how much would it have mattered if they would have score a td against Carolina instead of a FG?

Horace said...

I dunno ... hard to say. Offensive and defensive play calling change with that score and game clock scenario. My guess is goes to OT and whoever won the toss wins the game.

E.S.K. said...

I don't have the inclination to honestly take the time and point by point offer a rejoinder but I think the premise of your argument is faulty.

The Packers lost those football games, not just Aaron Rodgers. Blaming an individual for the outcome of a single football game, much less a season, seems lazy.

PaulNoonan said...

In short, my point is that many come-from-behind victories rely more on defense than people realize. Most of the time you do not win on the last play of the game. Even if they get a td against Carolina (and, of course things could have gone differently) they had no trouble scoring a td right back. With a better defense Rodger would have a few comebacks on his reume.

Better defenses also eliminate the need for some of the tougher comebacks by keeping you ahead.

Horace said...

I'm not saying they lost those games because of Rogers. All I asked was, when does it become appropriate to start expecting him to actually win some of them? Its a huge difference in the proposition I am forwarding. By the way, on a completely different note ... How many yards do you think Carolina would have gotten yesterday if the offense had not gone 0 for thier first 9 3rd downs? How many more points do the Packers score? Can't blame the offense my ass ... the whole team sucks.

Eric said...

Still hating Chris?

Yes, despite 549 yards this one is on offense. If the Packers Offense had been more effective then presumably they would have held the ball longer and gained more yards. Naturally this would subtract from the number of yards gained by the opposing offense.

And again, the defense produced four turnovers.

PaulNoonan said...

The offense was bad on Sunday, but it has not been consistently bad. The defense, on the other hand, has been.

It would be nice if Rodgers would pull one of these out, but he's also been handcuffed a few times by play calling.

Eric said...

Analysis heard on 540 ESPN. Early Packer victories were due to fast starts by offense. This put opposing teams down which got away from there running game strength. This played into the hands of our strength at secondary.

Packers are no longer getting fast starts and therefore teams can run on us all day.

I'd like to blame our own running game but last year we didn't have one either until mid season.

Corey Williams isn't having a notable year in Cleveland; so why would his loss matter?

Age? Packers are the youngest team. Youth? Brewers and other teams have won with youth.

Coaching? It could be play calling but our quarterback has the option to audible. Defensive Coordinator? They destroyed Chicago.

GM? Aside from the very grievous Justin Harrel instead of draft day trades i think TT has been okay.

I think coaching. The Packers have too much talent to be 8-8 or worse. I believe the Packers have at least as much talent as the year Ray Rhodes went 8-8 and was fired.

That means McCarthy should be fired right? No necessarily. McCarthy is the Ned Yost of football. He's been adequate but there are more people out there that are worse than are better.

E.S.K. said...

Eric, most of your comparisons don't really warrant response, but your final one does.

The difference between baseball and football is the diversity of available approaches. If you look at baseball, it's generally very difficult to find a "style" that differentiates managers. A baseball manager essentially manages men and determines when to give up an out for a base.

In football, there are a half dozen viable approaches (and dozens more tweaks/adjustments within those approaches) that make changing the head coach an important and potentially organization changing move.

Whether or not Mike McCarthy is a "good" coach is generally irrelevant, as it seems patently obvious he is the wrong coach for the personnel.

He was an utter failure in Detroit, but I think a cookie cutter west coaster like Mariuci would be an excellent compliment for the strengths of this offense.

Baseball and football are fundamentally different sports, especially in terms of coaching impact...best not to confuse yourself by comparing the two.

ESK said...

since i didn't draw Any comparisons until my last paragraph i can only conclude ESK that you're already confused.

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